Curse

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 09, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Necromancers are the kings of DPS in higher-end PvE areas.

Nobody can do more damage to a PvE mob than a necromancer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Physicals are the kings of DPS bar none. ALL the caster classes are far, far surpassed by a physical heavy team. By FAR. I myself didn't believe it either, until I saw it firsthand several months ago. However, of all the caster classes, Necromancers can offer the best support to a physical team. Your choices are:

Order of Pain + Dark Fury

or

Wail of Doom + several PvE skills

THIS is the very highest level of PvE, with a team of real players. And I agree, this reply is off topic for the thread. If you want to continue this conversation, please make a new thread and quote this into there.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Moloch was referring to a single character causing DPS to a mob. There's no doubt that a Warrior is king of DPS against a single enemy, but I have difficulty believing that one Warrior can do more DPS to a bunched up mob than a Curse Necro. In PVE, an Arcane Echoed SS in a mob will do tremendous dmg. Mark of Pain and Barbs cast in a mob with a group of Minions attacking wipes them out really fast. I realize that for a Necro's best DPS skills, an enemy has to be attacked by a physical, but it's still the Necro that has enabled the hugely increased damage to be done.

I think the arguments about DPS previously were concerning DPS done to a single enemy. No doubt - Warrior wins there.

ccruzp · Apr 10, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

In high end pve Physicals will deal pittyful damage by thenselves due to high armor , Necros deal Armor ignoring damage in area, therefore they make things die effectivelly in comparisson, especially in hardmode.

If you must compare single target dps go do it in the master of damage. If i had to put my money on a single character providing all the damage ild say OoU Bone Fiends MM w/ Barbs and Ebon Vanguard Ward that increases dmg, if you wanted to go extra stupid start casting GDW on the fiends.

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccruzp

In high end pve Physicals will deal pittyful damage by thenselves due to high armor

+damage ignores armor.

Marverick · Apr 10, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Which makes Assassins the best for single-target sustained DPS in high-end PvE.

Necros can outsurpass Assassins DPS-wise with 10 Minions; that's about the only way.

SS... relies on stuff to bunch together to get its maximum damage. If that happens, [skill=text]Splinter Weapon[/skill] on a few physicals usually wipes the mob in a few seconds. So, SS doesn't really do all that much in mob situations. Against single targets, it's even worse.

Carinae · Apr 10, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

A couple of Warriors or Sins, three Paras, Orders, Splinter Barrage equals unsurpassed damage. Stack:

Order of Pain
Dark Fury
Splinter Weapon
Ebon Standard of Honor
GDW
Barbs
Weaken Armor

Plus throw an IAS on the physicals and whatever damage they can run on their bar. Absolutely untouchable, and it can be maintained indefinately. This kills everything in Hard Mode on the order of 3-10 kills per second.

SS and Minions take way too long. They do decent damage, but they arent even close to the above setup. This is why I was excited over Wail of Doom. Because it shuts down a target, especially a monk, and accellerates the killing. The target would go down anyway, and fast, but it does speed things up since the monk can't really do anything to slow the process down.

mrmango · Apr 10, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I started drooling.

Chthon · Apr 10, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

1. I don't really see this as an "either/or" situation. MoP/Barbs is the only caster damage source that can potentially outdo a good physical, but it only works because it has those physicals around to trigger it. And the same works on the flip side -- the physicals (in Carinae's example) are only working so well because they're loaded up with damage buffs that are presumably coming from a caster, often a necro. Since each requires the other to be at its best, I don't perceive a conflict between the two.

2. The biggest problem with physical heavy teams is finding people to run them. Without PvE-only skills, the heroes pale before real players, and the physical hench are just downright awful. Hence the minion master. Can 10 minions match a dragon slasher, a moebius-deathblossom spammer, and a couple of imbagons? No. But give em OoU and EBSoH and they'll run circles around Talon, Koss, and even most PUG physicals you could recruit. Even the 10 extra bodies a minion bomber gives you to trigger Barbs/MoP give you more DPS than you can expect from your physical H+H and PUG players. Putting together a great physical-heavy team is kinda restricted to those with guilds large enough and competent enough to field a decent player in each of the physical roles.

Ensign · Apr 10, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Spiteful Spirit is the best single skill to take on a really bad team to deal damage and successfully complete content. It's still pretty good on a decent team.

On a good team Spiteful Spirit doesn't do anything and you're really just this goofy character that hopes that Barbs casts fast enough to matter before things die.

Carinae · Apr 10, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

On a good team Spiteful Spirit doesn't do anything and you're really just this goofy character that hopes that Barbs casts fast enough to matter before things die.

Yea. That's been my experience. I have found:

Necrosis
Finish Him!
Wail of Doom
Arcane Echo
Barbs
Weaken Armor
GDW
Rez Sig

To be about the best I can come up with to add to a heavy physical team. And wayyyy more fun than running Orders.

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 10, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

A Moebius/Blossom Sin has the highest DPS of any class in PvE. Assuming you're running 15 DM, you're also doing 90 aoe dmg about every 2-3 secs.

Dslash wars comes close when "FGJ" is up. They're a little more affected by armor than sins are, and when "fgj" goes down, the DPS goes down a little with it.

Necros got a huge damage boost when Necrosis was released. Besides Necrosis, nec damage isn't very direct. They do way more damage when more phys are on the team. You shouldn't really try to compete for who does the most damage. Work with the team using Barbs/MoP and other stuff. On the rare occasion I do bring Arcane echo, sometimes I echo Great Dwarf Weapon and put it on as many phys as I can. I can't see the damage, but it's not hard to see all the stuff getting KD spammed

SS can deal massive damage sometimes, but not always. As I got through HM, I was starting not to like it as much. I never liked how it's not so useful against casters - they're often the bigger threat in a mob....melee stuff can be handled with Enfeebling blood/etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Necrosis
Finish Him!
Wail of Doom
Arcane Echo
Barbs
Weaken Armor
GDW
Rez Sig

Assuming you're in a team that knows what it's doing, you'd benefit alot more by replacing that Res with Enfeebling Blood. Good use of it and you won't have to worry about needing a res at all. The damage it reduces is just much too good to pass by.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Putting together a great physical-heavy team is kinda restricted to those with guilds large enough and competent enough to field a decent player in each of the physical roles.

I sorta had the same problem. I wanted to use a few phys heroes, but the melee are no good. I was gonna try out a Penetrating/Sundering spam ranger, but then it got nerfed

My para uses Paragon heroes sometimes, but haven't really tried them on my nec yet. The benefit with using them on my nec would be that I could cast Great dwarf weapon on them.

I had much fun with Beast mastery heroes when Asuran Scan worked on all allies. Tested on the master of damage, Enraged Lunge did about 190+ =p

Carinae · Apr 10, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Enfeebling Blood does diddly when SY! is in play continuously. I'd be willing to replace the Rez, but name something that has an actual effect. Plus, since I'm Buffer/Debuffer, It allows someone else to drop rez who might actually gain more from the extra slot.

I take your point though.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 10, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

I haven't used Spiteful Spirit for a while on my Nec, but I submit that an echoed SS (yes, 2 of them per mob) will do more dps to a mob than a single warrior.

My point is: a Necro can cause more DPS to a mob than a warrior would to the same mob. This isn't about SS at all. The dmg may be the result of the group of minions or assassins attackin while MoP or Barbs is up, or by SS or whatever combination of skills that the Necro has available.

kel77 · Apr 10, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

I've run with the SMS alliance when they do fissure clears with that physical build, it really is incredible.
As far as enfeebling blood goes, everything dies before it can do damage.

jayce · Apr 10, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

2 melee physicals with IAS + 1 MoP = what mob, where?

they dont even have to use attack skills.

Jayce Of Underworld

Racthoh · Apr 10, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

The problem I have with Spiteful Spirit is that in order for it to work the enemy has to be allowed to act. Any kiting, KDing, attacking a dazed target will make SS less effective. That and it's thrown on a target that I generally don't care too much about until the important targets are dead; it speeds up the insignificant portion of combat.

Mark of Pain is okay, but it does less than Splinter Weapon and significantly less than the physicals (only 38 @ 14 spec). It also can't be pre-cast on the physicals like Splinter Weapon can. Let's also not forget its 20 second recharge.

Either skill is obviously capable of great damage. But if anything is spread out you're not going to be getting huge returns on those skills. In the ideal world everything balls up and those AoE skills go to work. However everyone knows how slow tanknspank is, a build that is focussed entirely on balling those mobs and blowing them up.

Minion Masters deal random damage. I haven't played with a MM in a long time so I can only assume the necro players I've been with aren't too impressed with that role anymore.

If you're looking to kill stuff quickly, physicals with buffs or Ursan groups are going to be the frontrunners.

Moloch Vein · Apr 10, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Mark Of Pain doesn't do significantly less damage than the physicals. It does significantly more damage than the physicals. Mark Of Pain is going to deliver its 38-42 AoE damage whenever any physical on the team hits the target, and that includes the auto-attacking without any armor-ignoring skill bonus.

The same is true for Barbs.

The same is true for Order of Pain.

The same is true for Splinter Weapon, however Splinter Weapon expires quickly and can't be kept up on all the physicals. Every called target can be hexed with Barbs and/or Mark, and Order of Pain can be kept up more or less at all times.

Great Dwarf Weapon is a great spell, actually, it's horribly imbalanced.

Mobs and foes balling up is a reality of PvE. It doesn't matter if you're actually controlling aggro for this purpose or not.

Carinae · Apr 10, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Minion Masters deal random damage. I haven't played with a MM in a long time so I can only assume the necro players I've been with aren't too impressed with that role anymore.

It's probably my favorite build, but it has some limitations that can't be overcome. In regards to the physical-heavy teams discussed here (that you run) those limitations are:

1) Minions can't be made to focus-fire.
2) Minions don't have any practical speed buffs, either for movement or IAS. Celerity doesn't affect them. Charge! does, but who runs that? (besides Devona)
3) Soul Reaping, as MM fuel, would fail miserably at the rate you kill things. God, I HATE the SR timer.

Solve those three and I could add a substantial amount of damage to your build with minions. However, on a slower team, not necessarily a weak team, minions (and SS) have time to work their magic. I often tell people, that if you can keep those little buggers alive, for long enough, they will kill anything. When I run minions myself, with an H/H team, I easily outdamage the whole hench squad combined.

Barbs vs. Mark of Pain

This is a tough call for me. The main issue for me is cast-time. I just can't get Barbs on the primary target before it dies, or if I do it has under 10% health left. It's essentially a wasted 2 second cast, which is a LOT of time with the physical teams. Mark of Pain, potentially would deal MUCH more damage AND has a 1s cast time. These make MoP very, very attractive over Barbs. But the 20s recharge is a killer here.

I guess the best idea might be to cast Barbs on an off-target before the team focuses on him. But the 2s cast-time and single-target effect are still highly unattractive.

Moloch Vein · Apr 10, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Assassin's Promise for the recharge.

Carinae · Apr 10, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Assassin's Promise for the recharge.

Well, now that's a good idea. I might try it. I'd lose Wail, but the increase in damage would be worth it.

It would also free up a slot, so I could run Barbs as well.

kranius · Apr 10, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Try running with 2 hammer wariors, 1 water ele, 1 earth ele, 1 N/Rt with MoP, barbs, SS, splinter, a-rage, 1 para for support and two monks.

Its insane.